28 replies to this topic

[Game]

KM., on 02 April 2010 - 11:20 AM, said:

Wonderkid, on 02 April 2010 - 10:56 AM, said:

What was so different about then and now?

The difference now is the attitudes. Everyone is so high and mighty and is so set in their blinkered views that it is corrosive to the 'scene'. Take the LW and Susie flame war for example.. Nothing on Susie is actually copyrighted but they blew that trumpet a little too much for my liking so I took it to the copyright office for advice as they were fraudulently claiming copyright. In years gone by the people at the top of the sites were largely happy to help each other out as I recall a few interviews from some of the game staff being spread across a few sites and all sites happily advertising this fact and where it was being held.

Where would this happen now as there isn't a fully recognised portal now as everyone wants to keep their memberbase to themselves and doesn't want to share its content with anyone.

I fully agree with your assessment at the end there. For me, there is nowhere you can actually advertise anymore. Susie will let you, F-P, FMGL, SI Games, LW (they let me anyway, there is no Scene section after all the trouble it caused) and FM-B. The rest either don't allow you or have it setup so they have to approve your site (which never gets approved because they fear you'll take their members away, which is the one thing they care about most).

Of the entire Scene, only this place, FM Pundit (sometimes), FM-Britain's Twitter page and sometimes FM-View's Twitter page will you ever find people talking about other sites. You never see anyone else do anything unless they get something back in return - that's what we've evolved into :: http://www.footballm...-of-the-editor/ - all started when people cared more about member numbers than their content.

[Game]

JordanC, on 02 April 2010 - 11:25 AM, said:

Wonderkid, on 02 April 2010 - 11:10 AM, said:

There is nothing wrong with making money until it becomes apparent that's the only motive for the site. These new sites see Susie making money from Premium Membership, so they then open with a VIP lounge that costs £10 a year to get into - stuff like that pisses me off and that's the boundary that a lot of sites fail to respect. If they're not littered with annoying adverts, they're covered in sales pitches.

You can always tell when money is the only motive - the content is crap. The best stuff is *always* created by those who are most passionate about it - and focus their effort on providing helpful & useful work that others can benefit from.

I have no problem with other site's attempting to use a similar "premium" model as Susie. If it's not worth it, not many will pay and therefore, the site will see virtually nothing from doing it. That's the power of the open market & capitalism. The cream rises to the top.

Sites littered with adverts are the same way. Little do most realize, these PPC ads (and even CPM) really don't produce much, if any income. Relevance plays a big part with this (the closer your site is to the publishers target audience) as well as "gamers" being a well known demographic that are "banner blind". Now, if sites want to hopelessly attempt this route and *maybe* eek out enough for 1-2 pints a month if they have enough traffic - then so be it. Although, cluttering the site with intrusive advertising can easily put off a ton of people in the process from returning - and severely limits your ability to showcase content well (since effective ad placements would get in the way).

Fact is that no-one is ever going to make lots of money from these sites because you'll get someone popping up and doing the same thing (even if shitter) for free. People won't pay for something that costs a lot less than it's worth - even the e-book's you guys make would be worth more in a competitive market and it's not worth your time making them for a living, as you'd not actually profit from it. You don't do the e-books as a line of work, you use them for added income - a thing that a lot of people will miss.


I completely agree with your assessment, but I've forgotten why we're covering the monetary side of this argument

[Caleyjag]

Hello chaps,

This might take a while so take a seat...

With regards to the SEGA/SI "news" - well it is not really news is it. As someone said, it's been 2 and a half years of "we're gonna do something, promise!" and a few days ago we get a topic saying "we're gonna do something, promise!".

A bit annoyed it was locked as I'd have loved some discussion on the issue but I don't want to go over anyones head and open it again.

Really, should we be expecting anything? SI have got SEGA as their advertising machine, and they are MUCH more powerful than SI ever were back when they needed the community to spread the word about CM, then going into FM.

For FM2005 they called on us all to tell the world that the makers of Championship Manager were making Football Manager and that it was the same game but rebadged. CM was done by others and was therefor inferior. Our job as sites was to get the word out. We were used as an advertising tool and that's when the whole affiliation thing kicked off. They gave us a pretty badge, access to news BEFORE it broke, and in return we completely ignored Eidos' CM and told others to ignore it too.

With FM2005 we were still riding the wave in regards to logos, skins & facepacks as well. A lot of good stuff came out around this time. Sites were a hive of activity creating stuff for the game.

Fast forward 5 years.

Logos are already in the game (of course, not ALL, but the major clubs are) and there are only so many ways you can crop a club logo.

Skins are a dying art as SI create extremely good default skins to use (I haven't downloaded a skin since FM2006!), backgrounds packs are pretty non-existent and that leaves us with kits and facepacks really. Both of which are done by a handful of people.

Resource sites - once the big players - are VERY quiet now. And there hasn't been anything that has taken their place as a big site apart from FM Britain.

The community has died off because we aren't regarded as important as we once were by SI and also because of the good job they've done with the game itself. The community just isn't needed as much as it once was.

Instead we're left with sites discussing player reviews and club guides. They were pathetic 10 years ago, and they are pathetic today. We don't need them. People spend hours on this rubbish instead of posting a link to Wikipedia. The originality has disappeared completely.

So what can be done? SI/SEGA can't exactly get resource sites kicking again without stripping their game of graphics. Custom leagues is a brilliant step forward but we'll find that we'll get a lot of real leagues (negating the need for others to create them) and a few decent "world leagues" which will be adjusted to suit each new version of FM. So that activity will die down soon too.

However, we shouldn't look at SI or SEGA to fix things. As I say, we're not as important as we once were. They're hardly going to spend a lot of money on something that isn't required (btw, fansites will always be around so there is no harm in spending no money). It's our job to make our sites worth visiting.

First, back to basics. Provide something Joe Public wants. Cheats. Tips. Somewhere to discuss YOUR game.

How many sites are dedicated to exploiting the game and cheating? Lots of people do it yet very little sites discuss it (other than mentioning a new version of FM Scout is out). Why? Because it is wrong to cheat? Who cares!

Tips - get rid of player guides. Get some real SIMPLE tips out there. In midfield, should I use forward/back arrows? What formation is best to use against a 3-5-2? Man marking and zonal marking... how do I know which is more effective? Bloody hell there are THOUSANDS of simple things to talk about and it's hardly taxing on the brain yet is VERY useful.

Somewhere to discuss YOUR game - forums, perhaps. Go further... Upload great games, great goals. Admins convert to video (it's been done before, and gets lots of interest). Badger SI to allow us to export more from the game (all time best eleven please! Complete with stats) so we can upload and show off.

Now, onto the community itself. I'll admit, I'm pissed my site doesn't get much of a mention elsewhere. It's been the same for pretty much all the sites I've created apart from sortitoutsi.net. I've no idea why as they are all very different to most other sites, and im my opinion VERY good ideas. Ideas you couldn't fail to notice tbh. But it's always been like this. Always. And everyone keep complaining about it.

I remember the very first SI affiliates day. We came away from that really enthusiastic. Sites all over the world chatting to each other, sharing info. For about a week.

Then everyone went off and did their own thing.

If physically meeting other webmasters and creating friendships doesn't get sites closer together, nothing will.

What we have to do is move away from the whole "stealing" thing that's going around just now and move towards "sharing".

I don't know how many of you remember the Community Downloads Project? The idea was that using Susie's RSS feed I could generate category listings of their files, and clicking on a category you could view the file itself. Then download it. If you wanted to upload a file, you click a button and away you go.

My theory was that if we had one central resource site for files, we could ensure all links worked. other sites could copy a couple of lines of code (seriously) and they would have the FULL directory of all Susie's files, formatted however they wanted.

Thousands of files spanning all versions of FM (even the old CM's) would instantly be available to visitors to your site.

And 3 sites used it.

Just 3.

Pathetic.

But at least it was sharing content. Webmasters seem content with providing a newsfeed as proof they are willing to share. That's not far enough in my eyes. Just chucking up a link to another site isn't good enough either. Problem is I don't think webmasters have the time, nor the desire to spend time each day promoting another sites work.

[Game]

I've just read all that and I completely agree with your assessment of things, BUT I will say this. The Resource sites have pretty much died out for two reasons:

{1} Like you said, SI are now providing these things as standard in FM. By providing what the Community used to produce directly to the consumer they cut out the need to visit the Scene - the impact on the Community in this regard is greatly reflected at FMGLive.

{2} Resource sites aren't being rejuvenated for the times. I was looking at the old FM Portal yesterday and Rob had different categories set up for the different types of sites available. I myself couldn't actually find enough sites today to fill each category he had listed. The Community followed a trend in a bid to make themselves all like Susie; what this did was take everyone down the same path and the Scene has lost a lot of it's different types of site as a result of everyone trying to do what Susie does.

The one thing everyone's forgotten is that EVERYONE playing FM at some point will want someone to advise them. Now, webmasters take that and set up a forum, they think it's the key to making their site successful but it's not. The key is to provide content. The new Resource site is the site like FM-Britain, like this site, like FM Pundit; sites where you can access a catalogue of advice, hints, tips and then discuss them further (if you want to) in a forum. That's the one commodity that will always be required by the consumer and it's the one thing SI/SEGA fail to provide and will always fail to provide because they don't have the time to continually provide answers to questions.


I don't know what the plan is from SI/SEGA but I don't think the Community is any less valuable to them. I think the Community is largely a worthless commodity but there are definitely some sites which do things SI/SEGA cannot - these sites are the key to turning the tide.


-- I do remember that Community Download Project too, was a brilliant idea - one we might all benefit from redoing, although I don't think Rob would want that in the current climate (ad-revenue and all).

[Caleyjag]

Remember, SI have a massive forum that is far better (in terms of getting a quick answer, and at times very detailed answer) than the rest of the fansites have.

What fansites do for SI is provide peer pressure to update to the latest version.

Ever year fansites will dump their old stuff into an archive or ignore old versions and just talk about the latest one. If you don't upgrade, you'll be left out of a lot of conversations.

Anyway, there certainly wont be a revamp. They'll maybe bring back Affiliates Day, free copies of the game, beta testing opportunities to sites that they consider trustworthy and I hope this time they lay some groundrules and stick to them.

- Be around for more than 6 months.
- Discuss FM primarily.
- Update regularly (and I'm talking FM content, not "LOOK, NEW DESIGN!" or "WE'VE UPGRADED TO A NEW FORUM VERSION!!").
- Be pro-active in engaging people to discuss the game.

Give each site a period of time to prove themselves (so that old sites don't get in by default) and by sticking to these rules we'll perhaps get other sites aspiring to join the scheme by sticking to what SI require for entry.

I'd also pick sites based on what they offer so the affiliates area is populated by a diverse array of sites.

We don't need 20 graphics sites, or 20 blogging sites. Give us 5 tops. Keep these 5 on their toes to keep improving for fear they'll be dumped for a site that is doing things better. Earn the badge!!

[Game]

Whilst I agree with your final thoughts, I don't believe SI would ever allow themselves to have a top 5. Even on Twitter just now, Miles wouldn't shoutout a Tweet because the other sites would act like babies.

Whilst I think a lot of people, including myself, would like to see worth in the Affiliation scheme and feedback from SI/SEGA on who they feel is doing the best, I don't think for a second we'll ever see that.

I think to start with we may see rules being brought in, people having to hit targets to be affiliated, but I don't think people will lose affiliation once they have it, which is the flaw in the scheme - the badge doesn't mean anything these days.

[JordanC]

Hey guys... I was writing out a reply to this and got so involved with the subject at hand, I completed it for an article I'm publishing on Game World One tomorrow. But since it was inspired by the discussion here, I wanted to post my reply in full for more conversation. (yes, Game/Wonderkid/Julius - this means you have complete permission to post this full piece on FM Fanboys as an article too! - just put my name on top as credit with a link to GW1.)

Recently, I was speaking to Caleyjag, the founder of one of the top Football Manager fan sites on the web and also, quite likely one of the most innovative members of the FM community for many years.

On FMFanboys, he made a statement that:

"the community just isn't needed as much as it once was."

All respect in the world to him, but I think he couldn't be more wrong. The community is even more important now than ever before with the immense power that independently operated fan sites have in this new digital age.

Type in "Football Manager 2010" into Google and see what comes up. Realize this phrase is estimated at 1.2 million individual searches a month. Add all the other varieties of similar search phrases (reviews, tactics, downloads, graphics, etc.) and you easily get 10+ million searches made per month that shout out "I'm looking for information pertaining to this specific game". So, what does this existing or potential customer see?

The usual web sources are there - the official FM site, Wikipedia entry, Steam page, Amazon product page... but right on the first page is none other than the True Football Manager blog, FM-Base resource site and SoccerLens blog. All on the same "playing ground" with the big boys. That's the democratization of search.

Users get results based on relevancy and authority. For many the search popularly used for Football Manager, websites like Susie, FM-Britain, FM Scout, Soccer Gaming even come up in results above the official website and the big-time video game magazines. (so much so that sometimesfootballmanager.com & sigames.com appear as low as the 5th page in many highly typed searches)

This means that independent fan sites can easily have access to a large portion of the playing demographic. Just produce content that is both relevant and helpful to those looking for this information. No longer can game developers, game publishers and huge gaming magazines just buy their control of the marketing message, opinion and support for their products.

In addition, the connectivity of the internet and mass public adoption of "social media" platforms and networks has immensely changed the way we're all influenced. Ask any marketer or salesman of the past 50 years and they'll all say "word of mouth converts more so than any other forms of advertising combined."

Take it from Tony Key, the senior vice president of sales and marketing at Ubisoft, the French video game publisher behind big hits from the Tom Clancy games to Prince of Persia:

[indent]Well, people are connecting now in different ways and getting their information in different ways. You used to get information from TV. Now it’s the Internet. We’ve always heard that word of mouth was the strongest. That is nothing new. It is the strongest sales tool. But now word-of-mouth happens 100 times faster than before. You can really spread your message quickly with the right strategy. That is where social media comes in. You are plugging into that and trying to get them to talk about your products.

[/indent]Before the internet era, the only people who could spread something to the general public in a wide scale were those with lots and lots of money - for purchasing time/space on mass broadcast mediums (TV, radio, newspapers). That was the only way to get a significant amount of potential customers to be aware of and consider a product - and the company itself dictated the exact message being portrayed.

That could be a million people getting information that "X is the greatest thing since sliced bread!" Whether or not Joe Blow consumer in the Midlands thinks the video game is overrated & riddled with bugs didn't mean anything. How many people can he tell that to? 20? 30? His immediate friends and maybe some dudes at the local game shop? Back then, his voice didn't matter much on the bottom line.

Enter 2010 and the dawn of the socially connected digital age. With platforms such as Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, Bebo as well as individual blogs (by way of search) and independently operated community forums (by way of search and social platforms) - consumers now have the ability to share their thoughts and "word of mouth" with others on a scale unheard of before.

Joe Blow consumer at the game shop (who before can only influence 20-30 buyers), now after a good experience or bad experience with a video game, as well as with strategy, hints, how-to's, discussion, whatever he wishes - he can go on his blog and write whatever he pleases, post his opinions & info on Facebook or Twitter and then have it seen by 1000's and 1000's of others or more. The effect explodes even more when other consumers can easily then share this message with their social network (of anywhere from 1 or 100 or 1000+ others) with a simple click of the mouse.

All of this without money for an advertising budget. All of this without any control or influence from the game publisher.

The final piece of the puzzle combines both the democratization of search and the connectivity of social platforms. It comes right back to "word of mouth" influence on buying decisions. Think of the movies, TV shows, video games, clothing, or virtually anything you're looking at spending money on. Do you just rely on a 30 second preview of a film when you decided to plunk down $10 at the theater? Do you just take a look at a full-page ad for a video game and then rush out and buy it no questions asked? Do you watch a specific show on TV because some critic in the newspaper said it was great? I surely don't. Most others don't as well.

In a recent Blitz research report, some eye-opening facts confirm these points:

[indent]Respondents also generally considered pals more influential than "experts." "Talking to friends" was rated as very important by 46%, as was "friends play it," while "expert reviews" were seen as such by only 23% and 32% even saw them as "not useful at all."

• Avid gamers are heavily immersed within the digital/online space but disregard the majority of staid advertising methods that are thrown at them.
• Avid gamers rely on peer recommendations and their friends for advice, yet social media remains underutilized and inefective in its current form.
• Avid gamers have their interest peaked by commercials, yet they fail to show all-important game play footage.
• Avid gamers find game Web sites a strong point of interest, yet marketers are reluctant to invest in sites that fully integrate functionality that is of interest to our audience, including social commentary, peer reviews, gameplay footage, online demos, etc.

Blitz is critical of such standard marketing fare as behind-the-scenes trailers, podcasts and wallpapers, saying they "are eschewed by avid gamers," but the criticisms seem a little misguided considering it plays up the importance of peer influence and encourages developers to "get your audience addicted to the game."

The mere fact that 19% saw downloads of "wallpapers, screensavers, etc" as one of the most important influencing online activities and 56% found them at least useful indicates that the relatively small effort -and budget - of such offerings can go a considerable way towards strengthening certain portions of a game's online fanbase.

[/indent]The gatekeepers are no longer in control. The community surrounding a video game has a remarkable ability to make a measurable effect on the perception and information spread about a title. This gives unwielding power to influence both potential customers in their purchase decisions as well as supply existing users with additional conntent & support to supplement their playing experience - possibly turning "casual" types into raving, addicted, enthusiatic avid fans, who then evangelize others in their passion for the game.

But, with great power comes great responsibility. (a Spiderman quote!)

Yes, this connectivity allows the community to also spread potentially incorrect information, warped perceptions, negative viewpoints and even downright lies, if it so chooses to do so. But nefarious acts with purposeful ill intent undermines the benefits of this new era of mass communication.

Honesty wins, the good reviews with the bad. Transparency wins, giving context to your editorial opinions. And most of all, thewillingness to help others wins. Producing independent content and discussion that further provides depth for those interested in purchasing the game and enhancing their enjoyment of the product. These are the true shining stars of a community's effective mission statement.

From the game publisher's point of view, this all represents a radical shift from the status quo. As with any tipping point, change can be a quite daunting and frightening proposition. Seeing it happen before their eyes and still attempting to clutch to things just because "that's the way we always did it". It's a quite common human response. We can't fault them for it. More so that anyone, the publishers & developers want to see their game succeed, get better, build a bigger, more rabid fanbase and share their unrelenting passion for the product - especially since many of those working on a game were former consumers of it themselves and still play the product having a true emotional attachment that cannot be matched.

Even so, eventually the parents must allow their of-aged children to "move out of the house". Hoping that they raised them with the right values, proper learning and correct information to venture into the world on their own - representing both the positive as well as the negative influences from their upbringing. But remember, the parents will always be there to let the children "back in the house". They'll be there to provide support & care for them and continually reinforce their highest qualities - even if they leave once again and fail to embrace this information in the best of ways.

In this social/digital age where content producer & content consumer are both one and the same, where word of mouth explodesand "amateurs" operate in a significantly more level playing field as the "professionals" - it's those who seek to bridge the gap in the relationship divide who will prosper massively with amazing synergy.

Said by JP Sherman on key influencers on video game sales and critical strategies for video game marketing:

[indent]Gamers tend to be less susceptible to traditional forms of marketing compared to other groups, however, we crave content, media, conversations, images, op-eds, previews and a myriad of other forms of communication to consume. This is also marketing. Gamers are pre-programmed to consume the kind of social connection marketing that’s evolved over the internet, social media and mobile applications. We eat this stuff up at a phenomenal rate.

I want contest information, I want community news, I want deals and exclusive content. This eCRM system full of gamers who are enthusiastic could be transformed into loyal customers and producers of content for you.

Social marketing is an established habit and behavior of gamers. We crave information and we’re more than willing to modify it, share it, post it and do whatever the hell we want with it. Video game social media marketing is about knowing what core behaviors and desires gamers have and feeding that need with a planned and programmed content release schedule.

[/indent]It's this symbiotic relationship that creates a pure living, breathing, fruitful community for all participants - both the consumers as well the publishers & developers. Each side sharing the burden and responsibility for the success of a title.

Paving the way for a bright future in which new users can utilize the community to recieve honest peer opinions and make comprehensively informed decisions. Where the fanbase helps others learn the basics, creates content for further enjoyment in the playing experience and provides unbiased discussion and support to all members that comprise the game's ever-growing consumer base.

Leading the charge in which the community's efforts are nurtured and enhanced by the publishers and developers. Harnessing the energy of the game's rabid fanbase and allowing them to mobilize far and wide in an uncontested fashion - not with control & restriction that essentially eliminates the true authenticity of an independent peer source. Supplementing the community with tools to achieve the best laden efforts in the quality of produced content and distribution. Intergrating the rabid fanbase with their internal marketing mindset in order to further increase the enagement factor between consumers, therefore amplifying the reach and effect of the message and passion to others.

Everyone wins in the process.

The game improves. The community increases in size. Video game sales go up. More resources can be put in for the game's development. More raving fans to produce content, discussion and get the word out to others. It's a snowball effect that grows exponentially greater each cycle around.

But it takes resisting the fear of change. Resisting the mentality of "that's the way it's always been". Resisting the dependency of uni-directional participation which defined our specific roles in the old system. We may all call it the "new media" - but in a way, it's about delving into our civilization's past by embracing the "tribal" philosophies of our ancestors. Where the exchange of ideas and value ruled society and social capital was the currency.

So, what are you doing for the tribe to get this snowball rolling?

Edited by JordanC, 06 April 2010 - 09:52 PM.

[Caleyjag]

Excellent article Jordan. I agree, I was probably quite flippant with my comment, borne out of frustration and disillusionment about the lack of any sort of interaction with those at SI and SEGA (although there have been moments where they have taken an interest in between large spells of nothing).

It has been interesting watching Google's search results evolve over the years, from SI's website being the number one result, to Amazon and Play and other shopping sites until today where we find social networking has jumped ahead of the pile.

[Game]

I didn't want to comment on this until I'd finished blogging because I had a lot of the same points to make.

I definitely agree with what you say in your article and I think I've actually managed to expand a little on what you were saying myself, not sure if you'd concur, but hey