38 replies to this topic

[Crackfox]

We've seen this forum experiment with a 3-4-3, now I bring you this. The 4-6-0

Quote

Why forward-thinking coaches are thinking without forwards




Can football be played without strikers? Is it possible for a team to be successful without them? Football formations have developed from the 2-3-5 of the early 20th century to the range of 4-5-1 systems we see regularly today. Is the lone striker the final stage of development, or is there still room for tactical innovation? The possibility of a 4-6-0 is being increasingly discussed, but is the system workable? And is it already in use?

The notation 4-6-0 means any formation without strikers: there are many variants on the idea, never featuring a flat six-man midfield, but rather a midfield split into two or sometimes three bands. The concept is based on a fluid midfield, in which all members are accomplished at defending and attacking, and more than one is capable of adopting the de facto centre-forward position. Naturally the system requires high levels of fitness and technical ability, but these are not unrealistic demands at the top level of modern football.

There are early indications that such a system could be prevalent in the future, the most successful example being the Manchester United side of 2007-08, which won the Premier League and Champions League. The formation can be most accurately described as a 4-2-4-0 (the middle two numbers here indicate that the six midfielders are split into two bands). The forward line usually consisted of Wayne Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo plus two from Luis Nani, Ryan Giggs, Park Ji-Sung and Carlos Tévez, while the two more withdrawn midfielders were Michael Carrick and either Anderson, Paul Scholes, Darren Fletcher or Owen Hargreaves. The system allowed Ronaldo, Tévez or Rooney to act as the 'striker' while the other midfielders did the necessary pressing and defensive work. In practise, it was Ronaldo who most successfully took the more advanced role, leading to him scoring a remarkable 42 goals, the tireless running of less spectacular players like Park Ji-Sung providing a platform for his talent. It isn't the perfect example of a fluid strikerless formation, as the driving force behind it was not so much midfield universality as a reliance on Ronaldo's individual capacity to create and score goals, and it isn't one that can be easily repeated by other teams: there is, after all, only one Cristiano Ronaldo. But it does offer a glimpse of how a football team can function successfully without a recognised centre-forward.

United aren't the only example. An improbable injury list forced Everton to play some of the 2008-09 season without a centre-forward. An advanced midfield role was being adopted by Tim Cahill and sometimes also Marouane Fellaini, while Luciano Spalletti began experimenting with something approximating a 4-5-1-0 or an adapted 4-1-4-1 at Roma, with Daniele De Rossi and Simone Perrotta running beyond the playmaker Francesco Totti. Everton's system is unlikely to be repeated due to the return of their strikers from injury, but it is still worth looking at. It centred around high levels of positional organisation and work-rate, relying largely on the ability of Cahill, Fellaini and Joleon Lescott to capitalise on the set-piece delivery of Mikel Arteta. Much of the closing down and off-the-ball running was performed by the wide midfielders Leon Osman and Steven Pienaar. Spalletti's Roma, by contrast, deploy two 'shuttling' central midfielders in De Rossi and Perrotta, as well as David Pizarro in a more withdrawn role. This creates space for the forward running of the wingers, as well as the individual talent of Totti. Both Everton and Roma have benefited from their tactical bravery – in 2008-09, Everton finished an admirable 5th place in the Premier League and reached the FA Cup final, while Roma finished league runners-up in the first three seasons of Spalletti’s management, as well as lifting the Coppa Italia in 2007 and 2008.

If it’s theoretically viable, then, for a 4-6-0 to succeed, why isn’t everyone using it? There are still significant obstacles to the tactic being adopted more universally. A system without strikers requires both extraordinary levels of fitness and extremely high-quality players. It's telling that the three examples detailed above come from successful, relatively wealthy clubs who perennially finish in the top half of their domestic leagues. The system is unlikely to take on among smaller teams, who lack the physical capacity and standard of players to achieve the fluidity and universality required. Neither is a 4-6-0 likely to be adopted by international sides, as its success depends on the players spending a great deal of time together, a luxury only afforded to club teams. Another threat to the proliferation of 4-6-0 is the recent emergence of more ‘universal’ strikers, such as David Villa and Samuel Eto’o, who offer teams the qualities which previously required two players - both goal threat and defensive consciousness, athleticism in tandem with technical proficiency. However, the recent success of Manchester United, and the promising inroads made by Luciano Spalletti, could inspire others to attempt a similar experiment. Tactics are, in some respects, the search for perfect fluidity, and at the highest levels of club football a formation without strikers could be the next step towards that elusive ideal.

This is from 'The Carvalho Peninsula'

http://carvalhopenin...oaches-are.html

anyone willing to make it work in Football Manager?

[Sims]

It worked big time on FML. If you had a technically gifted AMC you could rip anyone to shreds. I made it work on FM10 I think it was, only really viable with top players though.

[Crackfox]

Sims, on 28 July 2011 - 11:38 PM, said:

It worked big time on FML. If you had a technically gifted AMC you could rip anyone to shreds. I made it work on FM10 I think it was, only really viable with top players though.

My current save i'm Barcelona. Really there isn't a better side to try it with IMO

I have two outstanding regens to sit as the dm's as well as Masch then as the front four I have a choice of

Xavi
Iniesta
Pedro
Pastore
Bojan
Neymar
Villa
Afellay
Belhanda
Thiago
and of course Messi.

Bear in mind Villa's miles off form, Xavi's 34 and Iniesta getting on aswell I need adivce on how to line them up.

My first thoughts are obviously Messi will play the 'Ronaldo Role'. Through the middle as an Trequarista, yes? Would that get him forward enough though to act as the main goal threat?

Players like Iniesta, Pastore, Afellay, Thiago will provide the the deliveries. So i'd put them in the two wider positions, as inside forwards, set to support so they look for the pass? Or as defensive wingers to play the 'Ji-Sung Role'

Then I have the other middle spot, no idea what goes on here

thoughts?

[DeanoWHUFC]

I might start a Barcelona save just to get this working. Will update my thoughts and findings as I go, Messi as a treq definitely, although his player instructions would need to be altered to keep him going forward as much as possible. I would aim majority of pass' out wide having Messi as the set target man with the run onto ball feature. The key to it will be the amount of through balls you can have going into him.

[BlueAngel]

I was planning on working on this at some point this summer. Here's some background reading for you to start with

http://www.guardian....jun/08/euro2008

http://www.zonalmark...de-5-roma-2007/

http://www.telegraph...-formation.html

http://www.timesonli...icle3648903.ece

Teams to look at are Barca 07, Man Utd 08 & Barca 11. Only once you understand how this complicated system works in real life can you start applying it to FM!

[Crackfox]

Just reading the first one

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'I told him that five organised players would always beat 10 disorganised ones,' Sacchi explained. 'And I proved it to them. I took five players: Giovanni Galli in goal, Tassotti, Maldini, Costacurta and Baresi. They had 10 players: Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Virdis, Evani, Ancelotti, Colombo, Donadoni, Lantignotti and Mannari. They had 15 minutes to score against my five players and the only rule was that if we won possession or they lost the ball, they had to start over from 10 metres inside their own half. I did this all the time and they never scored. Not once.'

Love this

[Crackfox]

Just wrote out fuck loads then lost it all

Basically your need universality in all your players. They need to be able to defend and attack as one, to be able to be as good at picking a pass as they are at putting the ball in the back of the net. The passing needs to be quick and accurate through the midfield and the whole thing depends on your Center forward.

For now i'll just go over what i've picked up from the Roma tactic of this and the rest ill get up tomorrow.

Roma are the most modern example of a side bringing this back in. United have since taken the 4-6-0 Spalletti 'brought back' and adapted and improved it but Roma were the modern originators so i'll use their formation as a base for mine and look at how United adapted it later on.

GK

RB - CB - CB - LB

Essentially a straight forward back four, pacy, attacking full backs are the real only necessity for the tactic and even they can be worked without.

The midfield is everything

DM

CM - CM

Winger - Winger

Trequarista

It's late and I can't be fucked to get proper pictures so this is what we're working with. The roles are as follows

DM - The role De Rossi would play, or more recently Paul Scholes. It's the idea I personally love, the footballing quarter back. In football manager terms, the Deep Lying Playmaker. Quite straight forward, they take the ball from defence and pick the pass to midfield.

The Two Center Midfielders - The first real complicated positions. Though they start as center midfielders they become the most advanced players on the pitch. They are Frank Lampards, their late runs into the box transform them into strikers, hence the Universatility. Simone Perrotta performed the role for Roma, he could do the defensive duties when they didn't have possession and the attacking duties when they did. These two players are key for this to work.

Wingers - The inside forwards. These guys need to able to play on either wing and they need to be dangerous on the cut inside. Again i'll refer to Roma's use of these roles. Vucinic and Mancini played out wide under Spalletti, both of whom are brilliantly capable of cutting inside and posing a very real goal threat. This two work with the idea of causing the opposing defense hell by being seemingly untrackable.

Trequarista - The Totti role. A licence to roam anywhere on the pitch. This is where your most creative player should sit. Your Messi. Your Ronaldo. Your Totti. He drops deep, into 'the hole' and from here the defense are helpless. Follow him and there's a massive gap in the defense, stay put and he has all the time in the world to make something happen, this guy is what makes the tactic tick. In a perfect scenario he picks up the ball in that whole and has the two wide players cutting into the box and his two center midfielders overlapping him and getting into the box. He needs to be able to pass, to dribble, to shoot. He needs to be able to hit long passes out wide as well as delicate one through the middle. he is everything in this formation.

Essentially this whole tactic works as a counter attacking approach. Not matter the scenario. no matter your team your counter attacking. This works on the basis of everyone defending and everyone attacking. Space is finite, the opposition only have certain room to perform in. Your filling that room with 10 bodies all entirely focused on stopping the attack, once you have possession you open up the whole pitch.

[Henri]

Excellent stuff.

[Validicus]

Nice write-up there, mate. It would indeed be pretty cool if a bunch of us explored the 4-6-0, as well as the "new 4-2-3-1" on the other topic. After all, both tactical concepts are as current as it gets right now in real world football. While the 4-2-3-1 is evolving into a 4-2-1-3 with the AM dropping into central midfield, it would seem that the 4-6-0 is meanwhile evolving from the 4-3-3 in a similar way, albeit with the lone striker dropping into a deeper position. It would certainly be interesting to see how effective these new concepts can be in the current version of the ME.

The 4-6-0 is definitely a logical enough next step in the evolution of football tactics with the inversion of the pyramid in mind. We've gone from 2 strikers but 5 forwards in the oldschool 2-3-5 systems, to 2 strikers but 4 forwards in 4-2-4 systems, to 2 strikers in 4-4-2 systems and all of its variants, to 1 striker but 3 forwards in 4-3-3 or 4-5-1. If you consider how the only difference between 4-5-1 and 4-3-3 is how attacking the wingers are, and how a 4-6-0 concept would simply entail the lone striker of a 4-3-3 operating "in the hole" and almost being in line with the wingers (and ceasing to be an out-and-out striker by definition), it really doesn't represent THAT much of a modifcation in practice, but such slight differences lead to completely different systems.

Edited by Validicus, 29 July 2011 - 11:07 AM.

[Crackfox]

The main problem will be integrating this into the ME, i'm going to try it today with my Barca side which could see me either pick up the lost 7 points to Madrid or throw away any chance I have of retaining Barca's 8th league in a row.

My main problem is i'm shit at tactics, knowing what works with what and what i'd need to change to fix something so prepare fro some nooby questions.

Oh and another good article to read: http://forum.footbal...bout107138.html

Quote

The principle behind a formation without strikers is that, if mastered and utilised with the right players, you can combine defensive solidity with offensive fluidity. The sheer numbers in midfield mean without possession the side in question should be able to revert into a solid and organised defensive unit, with the same difficulty in penetrating through the centre accomplished with such frameworks as the 4-2-3-1, and the absence of any designated striker means the opposing defence has an impossible job of marking the offensive players of the striker-less formation as they attack free space from deep positions. A

team
employing a man-to-man marking system would literally be obliterated as they would be dragged completely out of position, thus to combat this formation (even without man-marking) it requires extremely intelligent defenders who can read the game excellently, and not merely ones that can be likened to that of a brick wall whom have been trained the basics of creating a resolute defence by a simple coach. Even with high quality defenders it is always more difficult to defend.


This is indeed football in evolution. So, bringing the topic back around to my original intention, has anyone attempted to take this step and be successful without the use of a typical striker in Football Manager? The following are untested, but frameworks i would advocate (note as they are untested no forward runs have been applied):



4-6-0 Tactic I: This is a variation of 4-2-3-1, with the lone striker in that formation withdrawn into a deeper role. Essentially you have the holding midfield '2' like in a 4-2-3-1, who have the duty to defend and control, linking defence and attack to one another. Then you have a fluid front line of four players who have the duty of unlocking the opposition's disciplined defence with high levels of creativity, constant moving and interchanging of positions. "Free Roles", "Creative Freedom" and the "Swap Position" functions will be key to achieve this. Note that the '2' can also be reduced to defensive midfield positions if you wish.

4-6-0 Tactic II: This is a variation of 4-3-3, where the front '3' who previously would have been strikers are withdrawn into deeper positions. Penetration is always key in any team, so by playing without a proper striker you best achieve this from wide regions of the field (in fact it would be very difficult for the AMC to do this), meaning deploying two wide winger type players will be quite helpful. They do not have to hug the touchline but should attack from wide positions to some extent and provide creativity to break through the opposition's defensive line. These front players should ideally be fluid and interchanging like the front line of the first tactic. The midfield '3' have of course shared responsibility between defence and attack, but one at the very least must have the duty to get in support of the lone attacking midfielder and attack the opposing defence from deep.



4-6-0 Tactic III: This has a similar structure to that of a lone striker formation, if you like, but with the lone striker withdrawn. Here the fluidity comes with the midfield interchanging with the AMC to each take turns to have the responsibility of the makeshift striker. It will rely on the midfield '4' making attacking runs in support of the most forward

player
, especially the central pair. At the least the AMC should be given a free role. The side midfielders will give competent width to penetrate and the two central midfielders arriving from deep will be the cause of many problems for the opposition defence.


4-6-0 Tactic IV: This i compare loosely to how Manchester United might have lined up last year. The forward '2' are in a sense the strikers but playing deep, and they alternate between who goes forward and who stays deep (you could resemble this better by actually using one striker and one AMC, but for the purposes of creating a striker-less system obviously we wouldn't do this here). You could also have one (or possibly more) of the wide players interchanging with the front '2' in the vein of Ronaldo - maybe the midfielder behind the '2' also, but he would need ideal attributes as would one of the front pair for the respective positions. The interchanging players would do well to have free roles.

The following are two i just thought i would include for the sake of if you wish to employ a 3-man defence.



3-7-0 Tactic I: This is a variation of an unorthodox framework in itself, 3-6-1. In that formation, you have the central midfield player in the striker role. The system is obviously heavily control-orientated and designed to keep possession in the midfield for long periods of time. It's similar to the 4-6-0 Tactic IV when i think about it, but with an extra body in midfield. There should be enough protection to

survive
without wing-backs. You could try having the central midfield player in an AMC role too.


3-7-0 Tactic II: Finally, we have a 3-man defence formation that utilises wing-backs. It exhibits a 5x5 system in that there are 5 players with the principle responsibility to defend and 5 players with the principle responsibility to attack. The group of midfield players with the right freedom, creativity and interchanging should create a very fluid and dangerous offensive unit with sufficient width posed by the wing-backs. You could feasibly employ a 'libero' in the back '3' to move into and occupy the DM space which could be a bit open otherwise, were the front '5' to abandon their defence responsibilities too greatly.

[Crackfox]

Right i've changed to classic tactics and i'm now not sure theres a way to change back so here we go

I need explaining what these do if anyone would be so kind

Mentality: what does it change in terms of positioning, attacking pushes your players up the pitch and defensive pulls them back??
Passing style: I've never found out which is best, I'd guess that's relative but anyway. shorter for teams like Barca or Arsenal who have fantastic passers and good movement and is Direct just like launching the long ball.

Also if i'm working the 4-6-0 is it best to instruct each player individually than overall team tactics

Edited by Crackfox, 29 July 2011 - 12:38 PM.

[DeanoWHUFC]

Crackfox, on 29 July 2011 - 01:44 AM, said:

DM - The role De Rossi would play, or more recently Paul Scholes. It's the idea I personally love, the footballing quarter back. In football manager terms, the Deep Lying Playmaker. Quite straight forward, they take the ball from defence and pick the pass to midfield.

I found a deep lying play maker leaves the back line open a little too much. I much prefer the defensive midfielder on a support role, purely because it covers the forward thinking of a deep lying play maker whilst maintaining a good level of defensive cover.

I did have a little play about with ideas last night and this is what I came up with:

Goalkeeper: Sweeper Keeper - Support; My last defender, basically there to clean up anything the defense fail to deal with.

Left/Right Back: Wing Back - Attack; Exploiting the wings imo will be crucial in allowing the men in the middle to find adequate space when in an attacking phase. Wings backs are free to bomb forward and put pressure on the oppositions wingers/fullbacks half nullifying there wide play, forcing them through the middle.

Center Backs: Ball Playing Defender - Defend; The start of all my attacks, they can see all in front of them and pick out the better pass. Playing a high line hoping the offside trap isn't beat.

Holding Midfielder: Defensive Midfielder - Support; There to add a little protection to the center backs in defensive and attacking phases. Due to short passing he should pick up the most passes from the pair behind him, thus meaning his passing must be of a good nature.

Central Midfielders: Advanced Playmaker - Attack; What else would you ant them to do, other then break on past the "forward" three. overlaps are key to beating a good defensive line and with two players advancing that can pick out a pass or finish you always have a goal threat.

Wingers: Inside Forward - Support; Hopefully by cutting inside they will cause the opposition problems, with my wing backs coming forward what do the opposition full backs do? Do they follow my wingers in field or do they hold their position against the advancing wing back? It would mean the opposition have to ask their own wingers to be more defensive, working in my favour.

Attacking Midfielder: Trequartista - Attack; Getting forward and scoring goals, from the set up 6 or 7 of my players are now attacking constantly. With the ability to drift and the midfielders coming through at a rate of knotts what do the opposition defenders/midfielders do. This scenario should see me have a man free in the central midfield area pretty much all the time. Typically I have flooded the midfield and winning the battle.

I'm not sure if it's possible to make this anymore attacking or defensive to be honest. Playing a short passing game and giving the players a load of freedom to express themselves allows the side to play very open and entertaining football. Still to play another big side though to fa from tested fully. Will keep everyone updated with how I do.

[Crackfox]

Good stuff mate, it's similar to what i've just started building with my Barca team. what's your starting strategy. i was caught between attacking and counter. In real life it's a counter tactic but I'm not sure how that will translate into the ME.
Also can't decide on the defensive line. Is it best to push up or stay deep if you have a DM??


This is what I have so far

Edited by Crackfox, 29 July 2011 - 01:13 PM.

[Crackfox]

I'm having the exact problem I thought I would, the only shots are coming from range. I've just changed it so no one is really taking long shots, through balls have been encouraged as well

[DeanoWHUFC]

See I have a lot of similar settings but some very different. Easiest way to explain it is to put it up. So here it is:



I find my wingers are often getting to the byline cutting in and playing passes into the 6 yard box with Messi, Iniesta and Xavi coming onto the ball.

Some pre season results which are promising:

 psresults.PNG (217.69K)
Number of downloads: 18

I feel a counter attacking mentality would be too risky, in order for this to work in the match engine you have to commit players to attacking. The reason I have so many going forward is to leave as little as possible at the back meaning the offside trap has a higher success rate.

Edited by DeanoWHUFC, 29 July 2011 - 03:24 PM.

[DeanoWHUFC]

Would it be worth pushing the wingers up to FR and FL? You still, have no dedicated center forward so to speak yet you have a bit more of a presence in the final third, putting more pressure on the oppositions back line.

Edited by DeanoWHUFC, 29 July 2011 - 03:37 PM.

[TuNdRaLoWeR]

Really wierd, my friend said to me this tactic is amazing for '08 but i don't have any idea about '11, so cheers for this, may I can try it.

[DeanoWHUFC]

Since my last update I have played Inter Milan, with their narrow 3-4-3, at the Camp Nou and drew 1-1. The defence kind of handled the forward 3, only after they had scored annoyingly. I also had the standard away friendly against one of the feeder clubs Bunyodkor Toshkent which I won 5-0. Next up Real Madrid in the super cup.

[Crackfox]

Counter attacking has worked for me really well actually.

I'm in March with my Braca side, my most disappointing result is a 1-1 draw with Mallorca, the other 4 games i've won without conceding.

For it to work you need a very good defense, certainly the center backs.

If we take my most recent game, a 2-0 win over Ajax beat me in possession (as you'd expect with a counter attacking tactic) but when we broke we were massively dangerous. our 16 shots to their 7. The only real problem was we had no CCC. Maybe with an attacking formation I might get more players in the box

[DeanoWHUFC]

Crackfox, on 29 July 2011 - 03:54 PM, said:

Counter attacking has worked for me really well actually.

I'm in March with my Braca side, my most disappointing result is a 1-1 draw with Mallorca, the other 4 games i've won without conceding.

For it to work you need a very good defense, certainly the center backs.

If we take my most recent game, a 2-0 win over Ajax beat me in possession (as you'd expect with a counter attacking tactic) but when we broke we were massively dangerous. our 16 shots to their 7. The only real problem was we had no CCC. Maybe with an attacking formation I might get more players in the box

Even though I am playing an attacking mentality, the numbers getting forward appear as if I was on overload, without having the fatigue problem.

Just played the away leg of the Spanish super cup against Real Madrid, I ran out 4-1 winners with 4 clear cut chances. Here's the proof: